Flipping FC's

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Flipping FC's

Post by [ADMIN] Billious on 17/12/2013, 1:14 pm



How Flipping FC's Work

First of all dealing with any high wealth item comes with risks. It takes a few failures before anyone becomes good at it and even the best have losses. But if you think through what you did wrong you become better at it. Perseverance is the key.



Contents

Introduction
List of FC's that give Ranges
List of FC's that use a Single Price System
Symbols and Terms
The Chat Channel General Rules
When a PCer Leaves
Some Tips When Using an FC
FC Flipping with PC 101 and R Quark


Introduction

FC's or price checking "friends chats" are places where people report their buys and sales of items the FC covers and those reports are used to give the latest prices to others. All FC's use one of 2 methods for giving prices and all use the GE mechanics to work out if the reported price should be the high or the low price (like when you do a normal price check). One pricing method focuses on FC's that give RANGES (a high and a low price) while the other focuses on FC's that only give ONE PRICE (either the high OR the low price). Sometimes range FC's only either give you an average price (caused by very small margins) or one end of the price range (caused by only getting one type of report which is discussed later). But all pricing FC's work out their high and low prices from peoples reports by following the GE's mechanics which are explained in full HERE.

The reason why there are these 2 systems comes down to merchants. Many older merchants believe that giving ranges manipulates the margin and over time kills them as less experienced merchants continue to undercut, shrinking profits. Others believe that only giving one price manipulates the prices in which ever way the price checker cares to make it. Both have their pro's and con's, but it is up to the clans running the FC's to decide which system they use.



List of FC's that give Ranges

Nex and SS
PC 101
Pc sof - currently forum only
Bonds fc
Flipchat1


List of FC's that use a Single Price System

R Quark
90weaps PC
90 gear PC - currently forum only


Symbols and Terms
Symbols and Terms:

FC's that give Ranges
Range : Simply the high (instant buy or non instant sell) and the low prices (instant sell or non instant buy). Be aware prices are normally rounded, instant buy or non instant sales are always rounded up as these make the high prices and instant sell or non instant buys are always rounded down as they make the low price of the range. Depending on the price of the item and FC they will either be rounded to the million mark or the hundred K mark. Some very cheap "PC 101" items are also rounded to the 10k mark. Ranges are written as say 144-6 for example meaning the low is about 144m and the high is about 146m.

~ : This symbol is used in two slightly different ways. The main time it is used is when the range is between two .5 numbers. For example 160.5m to 161.5m would be shown as 161~. The symbol ~ can be on either side of the number and makes no difference, it's just the person giving prices preference. So most often when you see this symbol it means + or - 500k. However it can also be used to state then median or average price. At these times it does not have to be 500k either side but it will be the middle price of the range and it may also have a decimal point ie: 23.4~. In this example you would need to guess how far on either side the buy and sell prices are, making it harder to flip if you don't know the usual margins. But as a general rule it will be no more than 500k on either side of the price given.

< and + : These are used when there is only one report or one type of report at a very similar price. The first < being no more than the number following it and + being no less than the number preceding it. Basically if the FC is only getting high price reports they use < and if they are only getting low price reports they use the + symbol.

So if the only price they have to work with is an instant buy at 434m then they with state the items price as <434 meaning its' prices (both buy and sell prices) are equal to or below 434m. So this is the high price.

Likewise if the only price they have is an instant sell of 86m then they will say it is 86+ meaning that the prices is equal to or over 86m and this would be the low price.


FC's that use a Single Price System
b : Simply the high price (instant buy or non instant sale). As mentioned in previous guides one part of any trade in the GE will be instant with the other party involved in the trade having their offer fill non instantly. This means an instant buy (like when you PC an item) is part of the same trade as someone else who waited to sell (non instant sell) it at the same price. This is why both the instant buy and the non instant sell both can be used as the high price. Be aware prices are normally rounded, instant buy or non instant sales (b) are always rounded up (even an instant buy of 144,000,003 is rounded up to 145b) as these make the high prices.

s : Simply the low (instant sell or non instant buy) price. This is the opposite of the above where this time the sale was instant and the buy took time waiting in the GE. Just like when you do a normal PC, the instant sale is the low price and here is used as the price to buy at while flipping. Instant sales or non instant buys (s) are always rounded down as they make the low price. Even if the price is only a few gp below the million mark it will be rounded down.

All FC's
In and Ni : in = instant, it is either an instant buy (inb) or an instant sell (ins) depending on the trade reported.
ni = non-instant, it is either a non-instant buy (nib) or non-instant sell (nis) depending on the trade reported.
Remember an instant sale is the same transaction as a non-instant buy or an instant buy is the same as a non instant sale.


Overcut/undercut : Overcut means that the sell or buy price is a few gp over the price that is being reported and undercut means that the buy or sell that is being reported is a few gp under that price.

Conflict : This is an offer on the GE that contradicts a report. Now this is not something I have needed to use but I have had it used against a legitimate report of a sale I have given. It's a kind of a last resort to stopping manipulative reports. If a conflict on a price is reported the price checker will not use that report to make the price range until another similar report confirms it.

For example if I had a buy offer at the low price of the given range that has not been completed (still waiting for it to buy) and someone reports an instant buy below my price then I would have a conflict with his report. The reason is that if someone put a lower sell offer in for that item, my offer would fill and they would get my price as I have the highest offer on the GE. The GE will always give the instant part of the trade the best offer on the GE at that time. This means he could not get it instantly and is therefore lying.

To report a conflict simply state "I have a conflict with (either use the offending price or persons name)" and then wait to be asked what the conflict is. You might not get asked this if a few people also report a conflict, but if you do all you have to say is "I have an offer higher/lower for (how long it's been on the GE). Never accuse someone of manipulating just state that you have a conflict with them, and only if you have an offer still waiting to be filled (buy or sell) that they are contradicting.


Low Volume : This refers to the slow time of day when the majority of players are not online (in bed/at work or school). At these times less items are traded and are available to buy. Because many players are trying to trade a limited amount of stock, extreme sales can be made. So if all the reports for an item are within 1-2m of the PCers price as is normal for say a Virtus wand and then a report comes in that is 5m above the PCers price this would be called a low volume trade. That is if there are no conflicts with it and it is around this time of day.


The Chat Channel General Rules
The Chat Channel General Rules:

As for the chat themselves the usual respect is advised, no swearing, spamming or flamming etc. While some FC's allow talk about things other than price checks as long as the price checks continue and you Do Not talk about trends, some don't so avoiding idle chat in general. Overnight sales and old prices are a sure way to get kicked out of the channel so be aware and don't bother reporting them. It is seen as an attempt to manipulate the prices and Will Not be tolerated. Also Do Not report non-buys or non-sells as this is also seen as an attempt to manipulate the prices.

I also STRONGLY advise not announcing your buys as this can lower the range while you have the stock in hand and this is a good way to lose money. Feel free to request prices but don't spam your requests, a little patience goes a long way.

Also be warned people do try to manipulate prices so don't jump straight in, wait a little and watch the prices so that you know roughly where the price should be even if it's moving up or down. 2 or 3 prices around the same area is usually enough to be sure it's not a manipulated price.

Any extreme prices, a price that is very far away from the current range, will not be used unless either a rank confirms the new price or multiple prices by non-ranks are given around that price point.



When a PCer Leaves
When a PCer Leaves:

When a PCer leaves he posts the current price lists on runescape official forums (RSOF) which you can normally find by googling the FC's name. Another PCer should take over, unfortunately this is not always the case. At times where there is no PCer confusion runs riot throughout the chat. At these times it is best to stop and come back later unless you have an item you need to sell. Because of the confusion you can sometimes buy an item cheaper and sell it for more, but this is very risky and should only be done if your comfortable/experienced with that FC.

If you have an item that you need to sell then either go by the price on RSOF or by the last pc you saw. The first page shows the rules, how the prices are made and lists the ranks and most of the PCers. The last post on the last page will have the most current price lists. It can be helpful to look through the last few pages to see price trends before committing to a purchase.

It is best not to go for a big margin at these times as it may drop by huge margins during this time of panic, so sell at or just above your buy price to try and get out safely. When a new PCer starts they either take the last prices from the forums even though there may have been many new reports since at different prices. Or the new PCer starts with unknown prices and tries to remake the lists from new reports (I always hope for this but it doesn't always happen). Either way most players panic sell when this happens so it is best to get out as quick as you can or try to buy really cheap.



Some Tips When Using an FC
Some Tips:

I STRONGLY advise not announcing your buys as this can lower the price while you have the stock in hand and this is a good way to lose money.

Feel free to request prices but don't spam your requests, a little patience goes a long way.

Watch the prices for a while before you start as it may be dropping hard or someone may be giving false prices. So be wary of extreme prices. You can generally trust the prices ranks in the chat give though.

When you buy start with a low offer. You may catch a panic seller and get a bargin or if the item is crashing you can save on your losses. It doesn't matter how long it takes you to buy an item so err on the side of caution.

Most often your buy and sell prices will be inside the range given as numbers are rounded to the nearest million. Of course if you think the item is rising you can go over the high price.

If you don't get a buy or it doesn't sell after a short time (5-10 minutes) adjust your prices a little. But remember your trying to make a profit so try not to panic without reason.

Try to sell quickly so the item does not have the chance to fall in price on you.

IF the worst happens and the price crashes, you are most often better off selling. You may take a loss but you have the money to use flipping to make it back. Where as if you wait for the item to rise back it may take a long time and you will have nothing to work with.

Also it can be helpful to check their status thread on ROSF before you start. Here you can see how the price has been changing over time and see if things are rising or falling in general. All FC's have a status thread and can be found using Google, but these threads get changed from time to time as they fill up quick. The easiest way to find the newest thread is to simply google "FC Name Status". Here you will find it as either the first or second link. It should have the highest version number you can find.






FC Flipping with PC 101 and R Quark

First of all dealing with any high wealth item comes with risks. It takes a few failures before anyone becomes good at it and even the best have losses. But if you think through what you did wrong you become better at it. Perseverance is the key.

While all the FC's can be used to flip actively and inactively, these 2 tend to be more inactive in general. Pc 101 stretches their margins to extremes making them easy to inactive flip low wealth items for great margins, so we'll start there.
Almost every rare flipper out there uses the friends chat "R Quark", so you do get a fairly accurate feeling for the prices. Here, they will give you frequent updates on the prices of all discontinued items. Unlike the other FC's, in R Quark you will only get one price and will have to estimate the other. Be wary of people trying manipulate by giving you false prices, and ensure that Ranks have confirmed an update if the update was given by a non-rank.

PC 101

PC 101:

PC 101 is a pricing friends chat that gives the prices for the cheaper godwars items that Nex and SS does not. They do also price a few other items like some treasure trail items. All of these items have limits of either 1 or 2 and therefore are a great source of prices to help with flipping. Prices range from about 1m to 15m so some nice profits can be made from a small cash stack. They are not a flipping FC so they will not tell you the prices to flip but they will give you a high and low price for each item.

As prices given tend to be expanded you should put a buy offer in slightly above the low price most often and then sell it slightly below the high price. This is different to the other FC's where you would put a buy offer in below the low price to be safe, since it's almost impossible to get the exact margins given by pc 101 and these prices are slow to change for the most part.

If it doesn't buy or sell after a short amount of time then you will need to adjust your prices. The amount of time depends on how often the item is traded. For example Bandos chestplate is commonly traded so if it doesn't buy in about 30 minutes then you will need to raise the buy price slightly. Where as an item like Gloves of Subjugation are not traded often so you would give it maybe 1 hour  before changing your prices. From spending time in the FC you will soon see what prices are asked for often and which ones aren't.

The amount you change your prices by when you need to should be based on how big the margin is. If the given prices have a margin of 500k then you could change your prices by maybe 50k at a time, but if the margin is only 150k then you would only change it by 10 or 15k at a time. I tend to go by these general numbers when coming in from the given prices as well.

Due to the fact that prices aren't very fast to change unless effected by an update, you can often buy multiple limits overnight to sell the next day. When attempting this it is best to check the recent prices of the item on the FC's Runescape forum post to see if it's rising or falling. You can find the thread by googling "PC 101 status" and selecting the highest number version of the thread there is. Once you know if it's rising or falling you can adjust you buying price more in that direction to increase your chance of buying more (if it's rising) or increase your margin by catching people dumping stock (if it's falling).



R Quark

R Quark:

In R Quark, people often use abbreviations to find information out. If I wanted to find the price of a Santa Hat, I would say "Pc Santa". Pc = price check. Now, someone will reply with the price of the Santa. They might say "Santa - 125b" or "Easter - 65s". 125b would mean that the last update was either a Santa instantly bought for 125M or sold slowly for 125M. 65s would mean that the last update of an Easter was instantly sold for 65M or slowly bought at that price. For us this means that a "b" price is the high price and a "s" price is the low price.

You might see people says "phats: 995b/1050s/1225s/1300b/1700s" = Purple < Yellow < Green < Red < White
"Edibles: 54.3b/133.7s/152.2b/915s" = Easter Egg/Pumpkin/Disk/Wine
"Lowers: 90.2s/110.3b/151.8b/112.1b" = Green h'ween/Blue h'ween/Red h'ween/Santa Hat


Also remember that when people give an update such as "sold red hat 1300m in" or "sold red hat 1300m ni", in = instant and ni = non-instant. I tend not to report my buys as this can lower the price on you before you get the chance to sell it.

Before you can start flipping rares you need to know general margins for things. As always the goal is to make the most you can, but if you ever want to speed things up, then you can go for the lower end of these margins. As a rule of thumb anything that is under 100m will have a margin of between 200k and 500k. Items that cost between 100m and 300m will have a margin of about 400k-1m. That basically leaves phats and half jugs of wine which generally have margins of between 2m and 10m.

Now to inactive rares, you will want to know the overall trend of them, are they going up, down or pretty stable. Rather than wait in the FC all day to work it out it's best to check their status thread on runescape forums. This can be found by using google and searching for "discontinued item status" and it should be the first link. If this is locked then look at the version number (ie: v8), then add 1 to the number and add that to the search. Once you've found the current thread follow the prices over the last few pages posted to get an idea of which way the rare you want to flip is going.

If the price is rising then it's best to put a buy offer in above the low or estimated low price. Once you have your purchase you can put a sell in slightly above the high price. If overnighting then this is when you would try to buy before you leave and sell while your away.

If prices are pretty stable you tend to find that over the past couple of days the item has gone up and down slightly, but always around the same spot. You can then use this to your advantage and try to buy around the average lowest price it's been in that time. Once you have your buy you can then sell it around the average high price during this time, giving you a bigger profit than just trying to use the current prices.

If the item is falling it can still be inactive/overnight flipped. After looking at how fast it's been falling on the forums and knowing how long you will be away for, you can estimate a buy price that should fill before you come back. Remember it's better to overestimate the speed it will fall at since if you get it wrong your more likely not to get your buy and therefore can't lose on the flip or you catch someone panic selling, getting a bargain buy. If all goes well you should have your buy when you come back. Check the prices in the fc and put a sell offer on below the high price since it will still be falling.

Special Thanks to Bom and the flipping mentor team who helped make this guide Cille, Gonecase, Kelly, Killerhart and Minato.


Last edited by Billious on 6/5/2014, 4:11 am; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Flipping FC's

Post by Yamiteh on 17/12/2013, 3:07 pm

Well that's alot of merchanting related guides posted.
Kinda reminds me of my mentee days :p

I have a bit to add about flipping FCs though:
pc sof - I believe this one is used to pc sof rares, but it's kinda empty right now.
90 gear pc - I think this one is more known/popular than 90gear pc. Also pcs Shields but is also kinda empty atm.
Bonds fc - price checks runescape bonds. Maybe worth a mention too :p

Not sure whether they give ranges or buy/sell prices. I don't use them much.
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Re: Flipping FC's

Post by [ADMIN] Billious on 17/12/2013, 4:28 pm

Yamiteh wrote:Well that's alot of merchanting related guides posted.
Kinda reminds me of my mentee days :p

I have a bit to add about flipping FCs though:
pc sof -  I believe this one is used to pc sof rares, but it's kinda empty right now.
90 gear pc - I think this one is more known/popular than 90gear pc. Also pcs Shields but is also kinda empty atm.
Bonds fc - price checks runescape bonds. Maybe worth a mention too :p

Not sure whether they give ranges or buy/sell prices. I don't use them much.

These guides did start as lessons for the mentors to give which evolved over the last year or so but we are trying a new method to teaching atm. With so many guides I did forget to check the FC names here, so thanks for the info and I've added your suggestions.

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Re: Flipping FC's

Post by Julij2 on 3/1/2014, 5:11 pm

An example of how prices are rounded in single price system should be made as this is where people get confused.

124b doesn't necessarily mean that someone inb/nis item for exactly 124m. Item may have been inb/nis anywhere from 123.000.001gp to 124m.

Same goes for 124s as it doesn't necessarily means someone ins/nib item for exactly 124m. Item may have been ins/nib anywhere between 124m and 124.999.999gp.

They don't understand how can something that is so close to 123b be rounded up to 124b and something that is so close to 125s be rounded down to 124s.

Awesome guide though. I think I've forgotten everything about those ~ < + #$%#! symbols Smile
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Re: Flipping FC's

Post by [ADMIN] Billious on 4/1/2014, 5:34 am

It did state all b prices are rounded up and all s prices are rounded down, but I took your suggestion and made it a little more clear. Thanks.

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Re: Flipping FC's

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